By Mark Stephens:
Where did Jesus and the apostles talk about the pre-trib event before the Great Tribulation? Nowhere! To arrive at
the conclusion of pre-trib you have to get a bunch of scriptures and assume it is the case because otherwise you
cannot find it mentioned in the Bible. If you believe it is mentioned, then show me where Jesus said, "Before the
tribulation of those day." If you can do that then you win the debate.

Do you know the difference of keep and take?
John 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from
the evil.
Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,
which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

John 17:15 looks like it could be used to prove post-trib
Rev 3:10 ...keep thee from the hour of temptation...

Keep means to protect not take from the world. Just like how God kept Noah and Lot he will keep us as in those
days as when he protected them from his wrath.

Escape and Rapture do not have the same meaning.
Luke 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that
shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In order to escape from something you first have to be in it. Can you escape from prison if your not in it? The way
you escape the great tribulation is from being in it and God will spare you the judgement to come by finding you

Do you know the difference between Jews and disciples?
Disciples follow Jesus - Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately,
saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples wanted to know what to expect when he came back for them not the Jews. Many contenders of
pre-trib believers say this was for the Jews, but in actuality it was directed to his disciples who followed him. The
disciples now know that when the sun turns black and the moon turn red he is coming for them. It really is that

Further proof Jesus did not direct this to just the Jews: Mark 13:37  And what I say unto you I say unto all,

Do you know the difference between Jews and the Elect?
The Jews never obtained the election: Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Now that we know the Jews are not the elect: Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who are the elect? Not the Jews.

Some try to say that the Jews obtain the election during the Great Tribulation but that is nothing more than
conjecture because there is nothing found in the word of God that backs up this claim. This is a teaching that
someone just wants to believe despite there being no scripture.

Most of what I've posted does not disprove pre-trib but it does disprove some of the teachings in trying to prove
pre-trib. I show that some of their ways of interpreting the scripture are taken out of context when it comes to
the Bible as a whole:
1. Rev 3:10/John 17:15 - Keep means to protect not take away in the rapture
2. There is a difference between disciples and Jews (Matt 24:3) - The apostles asked as disciple not Jews
3. Romans 11:7/Matt 24:31 - The elect mentioned are never the Jews

Question: If a new believer never heard about pre-trib rapture and they read the New Testament for the first time,
where would they find the teachings of pre-trib rapture?

This proves post-trib
Show me where it say, "Before the tribulation of those days" and where the teaching of pre-trib is found in the
word of God.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give
her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Remember, he was talking to his disciples as his followers and not as Jews. (Mark 13:37)
This will be a page for open discussions and something for enjoyment - So lets not to get too serious.
The topic will be: Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib
There will be no winner announce - The readers will decide for themselves what to believe.
Supposition is not allowed - You must back everything up with scripture
You cannot interpret a scripture to interpret other scripture, scripture must interpret scripture.

If you cannot find it in the word of God then it is not fact but something that was inserted into the belief of man
therefore making it a false teaching. If you believe in post, then you must find where it actually says he comes
after the tribulation. If you believe in pre, then you must find where it says he comes before the tribulation. If you
make claims for either case without finding the actual scripture, then what you believe is inserted into the
teaching without there being any Biblical proof.

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